Roma people in Ukraine: ‘heroes’ of criminal reports or full-fledged citizens?

Issues faced by the Roma community do not go away; on the contrary, they only exacerbate. The war, the humanitarian crisis, lack of access to education and employment — all of these challenges have only become more pressing. This is what the participants of the «National Forum for the Implementation of the Roma Strategy. Appreciating Diversity» were discussing. The Forum brought together activists, politicians, and international partners looking for ways to achieve a society of equal rights.  Panel discussions were moderated by an STB TV channel journalist, a co-author of the «Palaie!» (‘It is on fire!’) project and civil activist, Yana Brenzei.  

Her active stance and professionalism make sure that she contributes immensely into the shaping of an inclusive and just society in Ukraine. So today, we are going to consider what is it that will help us bring a positive change into the situation of Roma people and does the ‘department of simple decisions’ even work.

I was not afraid to be a moderator of a Roma event but...

— Yana, you do not have any Roma roots. You had never worked with this ethnic group. Were you at all concerned about agreeing to moderate a Roma event? Were you afraid to just go and approach the Roma people? 

— I absolutely wasn’t! I am convinced that an entire nation cannot be ‘this or that’. That is, a certain individual can, of course, have negative characteristics but saying that an entire nation, each representative of this nation is ‘this or that’ sounds like something downright far-fetched. We have Russians, of course, but they are far from being a nation; they are more like a population group.

The world is much more complicated than the «good v bad» dichotomy. As far as separate ethnic groups are concerned, I do not tend to brand people, to give labels, hence I had certainly never had any second thoughts (nor had I, God forbid, ever had any fear) as I was going to moderate a conference focusing on Roma topics.

I was much more concerned about my poor awareness of the topic, as I had never dealt with it before. This is why I was nervous, as I feared being too unprepared to this event. And so I read up, looked up things, in order to expand my knowledge this way or the other.

But the fact that the Roma community is associated with certain stereotypes and certain expressions that are commonplace in our language or are related to it is, alas, a fact. And myself, being a person not belonging to this community, cannot fathom how can one just live with that.

That said, what I am familiar with to a certain extent is that we, ethnic Ukrainians, are all aware of certain stereotypes we are sometimes associated with. Take, for instance, the fact that all Ukrainians like salo; that all of us are very joyful, always singing songs, and that each and every one of us is totally unreliable. We are aware of the fact that these stereotypes are colonial by nature, and that living with these stereotypes is not fun at all. Because you know that people from your country—ethnicity-wise, not as a political nation—are very diverse.

Some people like salo, some don’t. Some sing songs, some do not. Same is the case with the Roma people. I am certain that the an ethnic group is far more diverse and variable in any way than whatever the colonial stereotype tries to present us with.

Photo: Yana Brenzei at the conference

Colonialism and the Roma Identity

— Have you noticed, by the way, that Roma people, too, face the issue of colonialism? This is quite an acute issue, particularly in the face of the fact that Roma people have no state of their own. We, Ukrainians, are able to defend ourselves somehow; the situation with Roma people is much more complicated. They are losing their language; they are losing their culture. How can one move on to defend people who do not have anything of their own? As far as Jews, for instance, are concerned, we have so far managed to reduce the amount of stereotypes, jokes, and everything else. Roma people, on the other hand, seem to be the most marginalised group.

— In fairness, I should note that Jews have indeed done a lot to stop being marginalised by others—and they have eventually managed to gain a country of their own. This is why I definitely do not have any right to give an advice to the Roma community, as they know, better than others, in what manner they should represent themselves.

As far as myself is concerned—me being a person who merely consumes information—it is obvious to me that in order to tackle these stereotypes, we should see more examples of Roma people who ‘go outside the box’ of this stereotype.

Because I, a person who grew up in the 1990s and the early 2000s, used to watch the Carmelita TV show and I know of the Gypsies Are Found Near Heaven (1976) But in fact, apart from whatever the popular culture used to offer us, I received no other information about the Roma people. The Carmelita TV show only presented us with a narrow social stratum of Roma people and a certain pattern of their behaviour.

In order to change the reality, one should do something; one should come up with other examples. Back when we, in Ukraine, used to watch Russia-sponsored musicals featuring the gorgeous Ani Lorak, the dumb Verka Serduchka, and her absolutely stupid salo-eating hubby, one could well have imagined that the above characters were really generic Ukrainians.

But as soon as Ukrainians started speaking in their own voice, started creating content of their own, movies like Pamfir were released—and that was a product on an entirely new level! As we read Oksana Zabuzhko, we see a different Ukraine. The case will be the same as soon as we start hearing more and more Roma voices—then, we shall be able to see them in a different light.

This, however, must be a two-way street. We, being non-Roma people, should be prepared to see Roma people in a different light—not just through the prism of traditions, clothes, horses, and encampments. That is, we should be able to outside the boundaries of very stereotyped history.

The Roma community boasts a lot of successful people who contribute to society, even if they are not well-off. If we manage to have open-mindedness both ways, this will bring a certain result.

— I have noticed, by the way, that we have seen progress in a number of areas. We have finally recognised that women, too, are people. We have started to use proper vocabulary terms like «a special needs person». But it appears though that there still ‘should’ be a certain group for us to diminish, for us to express our negative emotions, our aggression. And so far, it seems to me that this ‘role’ is still restricted to the Roma people. Can we actually translate measures to be taken to tackle the discrimination of women into the realm of ethnic minorities and implement it there?

— You know, the word «by force» is not a very apt one here, as no one has ever being forced to do anything. It is just that, as far as the women’s rights movement is concerned, the voices of women have become so vocal that they just could not be ignored. So if you want to become an elected official, you have to listen to them.

Women were not only heard; they were also invited to make decisions, as they constitute the economic force of society. As soon as women joined the political arena, topics that had been all but unnoticed by men immediately found themselves on the agenda, cases in point: discrimination, motherhood etc.

This does not mean that women only discuss motherhood. It is just that the range of topics which they spot, is broader than the case is when only a single group of population is making decisions.

This is why I am not certain of the fact that enforcement will be efficient. We should rather be led by logical reasoning. If we have certain ethnic groups in our country, these ethnic groups must be represented in the public bodies. If we have Crimean Tatars in Ukraine, they must have representatives in the public governance bodies who would make decisions on their community.

If we have a huge Roma community in our country, we should have political representation of this community, as these people are aware of their own problems firsthand, from within. This is not a matter of any quotas or enforcement; this is merely a matter of common sense.

This is particularly pressing in those regions densely populated by Roma people, as they are particularly affected by it.

— But then again, let us agree that stereotypes do prevail. Every now and then, we hear things like: «Who is going to vote for that Gypsy? He is different, after all…» And then we listen to many more unpleasant terms. Many folks do not wish to see the other side of Roma people—even people in my milieu. I sometimes hear things like: «Show me a normal Roma». And as I tell people about my articles, about texts prepared by my colleagues, I am actually sharing stories of people I work with. But that does not work in fact. They never heard of the Roma genocide. They have never heard of the horrendous prohibitive laws. This is despite the fact that Roma have gone through same extermination and deportation as did Jews or Crimean Tatars. What should one do? What stance should one assume?   

— Well you see, we cannot just go with the ‘department of simple decisions’here. We cannot just put this to vote in the Ukrainian Parliament, requesting them to introduce quotas for a certain ethnic group. This is why we get back to what we began with: a two-way street. 

The Roma community has very strong voices. Anzhelika Bielova whom I have had the pleasure to be acquainted with is a totally fantastic woman and an example of an entirely non-stereotypical Romni. The more such people we have in the mass media environment, the more supported they are by the community, the faster we can effect changes we discuss here. 

I think that such Roma activists are also having a hard time. I used to see young Romni girls at the conference who shared their pain as their communities were often unsupportive, unrecognising of their achievements, and unwilling to urge them to move ahead.

I do not in any way intend to be an advisor for the Roma community. There are powerful voices from within who know the situation better than anyone and who will make themselves heard. It just seems to me that, this way or the other, all of us inhabit our common Ukraine anyway. And, from the standpoint of a person who wishes for the best for her country, it seems to me that the entire society must be open.

But then again, the Roma community, too, should invest in its own folks, so that they become representatives and represent their community otherwise than has been the case up till now. So that we never ever have to listen to distorted descriptions of Roma people; so that we associate Roma people with individuals like Anzhelika, not with ones we used to see in the crime reports or the Carmelita TV show.

— You have mentioned an issue: that sometimes, the community does not endorse public activism. Sometimes, however, this is due to established traditions. There is a continuity of sorts. Certain traditions have become so antiquated that they are no longer observed. That said, some other traditions remain living and ironclad—even despite the fact that, by now, Roma people have already lost a lot. And no one is going to present them with a state of their own. They are not going to just receive a state, a territory etc, like the Jews received. And herein lies the problem: how to open up and not lose your identity?

— This internal issue should be resolved within the community. What exactly are we prepared to abandon in order to achieve something? I am not certain of the fact that, by and large, this should be some sort of a zero-sum game whereby we are forced to relinquish something in order to obtain something in its stead.

Modernisation and tradition do not always contradict each other. And it seems to me that Ukraine is actually the environment in which modernisation and tradition go side by side.

That is, we are moving towards—or, rather, returning to—the European civilisation space—yet, at the same time, we are not in any way renouncing our own tradition, our own outlook. This is a complicated conversation—yet, the community itself should be the one to decide what is it that she wants. If we just like it the way it is, let us just keep living the life we have now. We are aware, however, that nothing is going to change until and unless we change it.

Roma people in mass media: marginalisation or invisibility?

— We have mentioned the issue of depiction of Roma people in mass media. Whenever a crime is being committed, they will always mention if it was committed by Roma people, if there exists a visual resemblance of the suspect to this ethnic group. In my city, mass media outlets have even posted investigative photos of underage suspects. How can one bring it to the attention of the mass media that this is not ok? Do penalty fees stipulated for this even work?  

— The way I understand this, it all does not make any sense at all. Why would we mention that, in this particular crime—for which these people must be held fully responsible—why does their ethnic origin matter? What is the difference who they are ethnically?

Alas, due to stereotypes living in people’s heads, and due to clickbait, such practices are still in vogue.

What should we do with these people? Ten asterixes as a reply to that. It all seems to be grandstanding, like «we talked a lot, and then we burst into tears». We have had a multitude of training sessions dedicated to this! How many times have we explained that one should not stigmatise certain groups! Not only does this pertain to this particular group; it all pertains to our country in general. Because by acting in this way, we only fuel mutual animosity. We only create distrust within the country—distrust towards each other.

Because, say, tomorrow, you will encounter Roma people in the street and you will cross the street just because you have read about someone raped or robbed by Roma people. Although these are actually individuals who have first and last names—and these individuals have actually committed that crime. And these particular individuals should be held responsible for that crime, not the entire ethnic group. Am I going to enjoy it if or when someone says: «Yana from Zaporizhzhia did something»?

— Well yeah but, you see, people care about views and coverage. Comments… 

— We should have an experiment: not to mention ethnic origin in the caption and see how much the views are going to tank. How much, eh? If the only way to boost views is to disseminate animosity within our country and label people, then the economic capacity of such a mass media outlet leaves much to be desired.

Try finding other strategies—without clickbait which hurts actual living people.

Because if we continue labelling an ethnic group as criminals, fortunetellers, thieves, rapists, what are we going to get in the end? Just imagine: a person with such an appearance has suddenly felt unwell out in the street. How many people are going to come to the rescue?

Mass media outlets are part of our society. They are staffed with the same people who then head home—riding the same bus for you, quite possibly. If we fail to achieve general awareness of the fact that this is no way to treat people, we shall fail to expedite global changes.

Yet we do have progress nonetheless.

Rom and Romni folks who showcase a brand new way of self-actualisation today did not have possibilities to do so 50 years ago. The community is becoming more liberalised. And this is something we talk about today.

Yes, indeed, I am not an expert, yet we still discuss this. And this means that the topic in question is expanding outside the boundaries of its little bubble. The bubble is growing. The process is far from being as fast as it otherwise could have been, but the process is underway. And this proves that the direction we are moving in is the right one.

We just have no right to get tired.

Photos: open source and Voice of Romni NGO